There’s this guy, Peter Thomas , and he has this blog entry called “jsf sucks”. I don’t want to increase his page rank so I’m not linking to it here. However, it’s certainly a popular page since it’s the top link for “jsf sucks” on google, bing, and Yahoo!. I have read the entire blog entry, all of the entries linked from it, most of the comments on those entries, and some of the entries linked from those entries. It’s a testament to my faith in God that I can emerge from such an exercise without feeling a level of guilt tantamount to that felt (one hopes) by agenocidaire.
I started doing a quantitative analysis of the comments on each entry, summing up pro- and anti-JSF comments. I only did a spot sampling of four entries in this way and each of them came up with more pro-JSF than anti-JSF comments. I believe that if someone proceeded with such a rotten tomato style analysis, they’d find that most of the entries had more pro-JSF than anti-JSF comments.
The best summary of Mr. Thomas’s vituperous screed coms from Benny Bottema, in one of the comments on one of his posts, which I’ll quote here.
Concerning your point about a ‘comprehensive list of hyper-linked, verifiable references to comments by real people’: I don’t dispute that. I said it is an unbalanced pool of information, poisonous in fact. With ‘nonobjective biased site of propaganda’ I referred to the site owner who compiled the list. Anyone can put together a site, only referring to articles that say something sucks. That’s just immature. Also the names you refer to are irrelevant, old quotes in a time where JSF couldn’t be corrected by supplemental frameworks. Take Rod Johnson’s point for example, it’s a quote from 2004 about JSF. No mention of its potential or combinatorial qualities... simply JSF itself which I already admitted is flawed on its own. And this is used as ‘proper’ argument? Useless propaganda I say.
Articles with this tag express a negative opinion of JSF...
|jsf-opinion-negative||but the opinion may or may not be substantiated.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-complexity||due to its perceived complexity.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding||but the opinion is based at least in part on a misunderstanding of JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding-components||but the opinion is based on a misunderstanding of how components work JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding-decoration||but the opinion is based on a misunderstanding of how decoration and extensibility work JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding-el||but the opinion is based on a misunderstanding of how the EL works JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding-events||but the opinion is based on a misunderstanding of how events work JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding-i18n||but the opinion is based on a misunderstanding of how i18n works JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding-lifecycle||but the opinion is based on a misunderstanding of how the lifecycle works JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding-markup||but the opinion is based on a misunderstanding of how templating and markup works JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding-persistence||but the opinion is based on a misunderstanding of how persistence works JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding-renderkit||but the opinion is based on a misunderstanding of how renderkits JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-misunderstanding-security||but the opinion is based on a misunderstanding of how security works in JSF.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-outdated||but the opinion is based on outdated information.|
|jsf-opinion-negative-reason-polemical||but the opinion is unsubstantiated and stated in an unhelpful manner.|
In addition to the tagging, which I hope others continue to do using this vocabulary, I took notes on each one, which I now present here. Many of the notes say, “fixed in JSF2: <code>” where <code> is a key in the following table.
|viewParams||the View Parameters feature|
|ajax||JSF2 standard Ajax support|
|facelets||JSF2 standard Facelets|
|compcompat||JSF2 standard component compatibility measures|
|select*||Select* now take Collection of POJO.|
|exceptionHandling||JSF2 pluggable exception handler, better error messages, ProjectStage.|
|resourceLoading||JSF2 standard resource loader|
|bookmarkable||JSF2 standard bookmarkability|
|navigation||JSF2 standard implicit navigation|
|systemEvents||JSF2 standard System Events|
|annotations||JSF2 standard annotations for most stuff|
|prg||JSF2 standard support for POST REDIRECT GET|
|noWebXml||On EE6, you don't need a web.xml if you are ok with /facelets/* and *.xhtml as your JSF servlet mapping.|
|el||JavaEE 6 standard EL method invocation|
|flash||The flash scope|
|viewScope||The view scope|
|stateSaving||JSF2 standard partial state saving|
- [2004-03-04] JCP Releases JavaServer Faces 1.0
I read this entire thread and there are just as many pro JSF messages
as anti-JSF ones. Of course, you chose to extract only the negative
Also, in the "Programmers So Far Underwhelmed by JSF" article, there was also positive and negative and you only extracted the negative.
You missed this, "If you would have talked 30 years ago to people programming in assembler, not everyone was happy seeing C come up," he told internetnews.com. "That's just evolution, putting layers on top of other layers, but it's our belief that with JSF we get a very powerful layer that makes things easier."
"Krause expects JSF critics to quiet down in the next six to 12 months, when the first JSF-enabled Web applications start hitting the Web portals and sites. His product, W4T, will include JSF in the coming months, and expects other tool vendors to follow suit."
This is exactly what has happened.
- [2004-03-05] JSF: The Ultimate in Flexibility? Or Complexity?
- Entirely outdated and somewhat polemical.
- [2004-06-09] Improving JSF by Dumping JSP
- We've done exactly that in JSF 2.0. JSP is a backwards compatibility layer only.
- [2004-08-06] My JSF Experience
- The threaded discussion has about 40% pro JSF comments, but you don't mention that.
- [2004-09-20] Boycott JSF
- Citing the bile blog? Come now! I love Hani, he's a rockstar programmer in my book, but the bile blog was always more about polemecism than content.
- [2005-07-??] Gradebook Taming JSF 1.1
Davis says, "For example, backing beans would do database queries when a
getter hits a null value. In practice, that meant we couldn't really be
sure when the queries were being done or to what purpose. Some DB
queries were issued in the Apply Request Values phase, some in the
Process Validations phase, and some in the Render Response phase. We'd
unexpectedly display old data instead of freshening from the DB. Or we'd
add a "rendered" check to a button and find that submits had stopped
This is a misunderstanding of the JSF lifecycle. Hitting the database from a getter is never a good idea. In JSF1, you could use a PhaseListener to do this, in 2 you'd use a SystemEvent
- [2006-01-20] JSF Burrito: More Complete List
vs choosing proper HTTP verb (personal annoyance) Difficult to link
directly to a specific page with specific content [especially the first
page in an app]"
Fixed in JSF2: viewParams
Component writing is much more difficult than writing JSP tags (Rick Hightower convinced me of this at NFJS)
Fixed in JSF2
Small free component market (compared to Eclipse; probably side effect of #3) [or even delphi components]
Fixed by 2008
"What's the point of JAAS and all the other security advances made if we're advised to "throw them out"?"
Who gave you that advice? I show a nice integration of JAAS and JSF in my JSF 1.2 book. Also, in JSF2, System Events work well for very fine graned role based access control.
"Unit testing our pages is too difficult."
JSFUnit works well here.
"AJAX components are coming, but it's much more difficult to integrate it on your own."
Fixed in JSF2: ajax
"Templating seemed difficult to do with JSF"
Fixed in JSF2 facelets. Also, Facelets has become the defacto standard for templating in JSF 1.x.
- [2006-02-10] JavaServer Faces - why?
- This is a largely fact-free polemical post. The comments have several well-reasoned favorable responses to JSF.
- [2006-02-21] Usability problems in JSF
- Thanks for including a post from our star expert group member Adam Winer. Adam was instrumental in bringing JSF to the level of success it currently has.
- [2006-05-03] Where JSF and Portlets went wrong...
- "(try using ICEFaces components with ADFFaces)"
Fixed in JSF2: compcompat. This was a central focus of JSF2. We'll know it's fixed when all of the parties have released JSF2 versions of their libraries.
"While third-party options (like Facelets) do make programming with JSF easier"
Fixed in JSF2: facelets
There were a number of positive aspects to this post but you chose to only extract the negative ones.
- [2006-05-19] JavaOne: Google Web Toolkit vs. JSF
- More than half of the comments on this blog entry are pro-JSF.
- [2006-06-19] JSF Rough Spots
tag is way too unflexible - it only takes a Map. You'd think you should
be able to show a simple String array or a List of Strings, but
Fixed in JSF2: select*
"The EL should be able to, as in OGNL, create objects has it comes across the need to."
This one I don't understand. The JSF EL has always done this.
"Every JSF page must define and load its resource bundle. I'm probably getting this wrong, but AFAICT, this is required. If true, this seems redundant and inefficient."
Fixed in JSF 1.2 (2007)
"JSF exception messages weren't very helpful."
Fixed in JSF2: exceptionHandling
- [2006-09-08] JSF and RSFHistory
- I note that RSF hasn't been updated since 13 September 2008 for its 0.7.4 release. Does anyone know if this is still an active project?
- [2006-09-13] Geebis Blog: Wicket
biggest reason is that creating custom components in JSF can be
difficult, especially if you want your components to have lots of
This problem has been solved very well in JSF2. The combination of composite components and resources is a very powerful answer to this person's problem. Fixed in JSF2: resourceLoading
Also, Ken Paulsen and Jason Lee wrote a nice article about how to do this in JSF 1.x at http://java.sun.com/developer/technicalArticles/J2EE/jsf_templating/.
- [2006-09-16] Tinman and the Scarecrow
- "In JSF, you cant copy-paste a url into a new browser and expect the same page to show up."
Fixed in JSF2: bookmarkable. Also, the PrettyFaces JSF add on does this even better.
"JSF has a rudimentary IoC container somewhat inspired by Spring; though nowhere near as powerful"
Many sites have been using JSF and Spring in production for at least three years. Also, the IoC container in JSF was inspired by ATG Dynamo and in fact pre-dated Spring by a month or two in concept.
The rational for this rudimentary IoC container built into JSF is to give a useful experience to JSF users that want to use straight tomcat. JSF + Tomcat was the lightest weight full stack IoC container when it came out in 2004. Much lighter weight than Spring at that time.
Nowadays, you have many options here: CDI, Guice and of course Spring.
"JSF uses absolute, declarative navigation enforced by lengthy XML, triggered by passing string-keys around--pretty piss poor design in this day and age and quite clearly a legacy of Struts."
Fixed twelve ways to Sunday in JSF2: navigation
"For some bizarre reason, JSF does not play well with the JSP errorPage directive."
Fixed in JSF2: exceptionHandling. Not just that but there is a pluggable exception handler.
- [2006-10-19] Faces: The emperor has no clothes
- "Then the hell of linking pages together starts."
Fixed in JSF2: navigation
"Not trying to be sarcastic here, since Facelets is pretty good, but this complicates the hiring and education of the team and in fact invalidates the selling point of Faces 'being a standard'."
Facelets is now the standard.Fixed in JSF2: facelets
"The spec is heavily based on two things: POST params and (ugh) forward navigation rules, that are default. In my previous life forward was the exception, not the norm."
POST is still the default, but it's much easier to do proper POST REDIRECT GET, or GET REDIRECT GET in JSF2.
- [2006-12-15] Nightmares on JSF Street in Trinidad
- This post has very little to do with core JSF and instead talks about the Trinidad JSF component library.
- [2006-12-19] Reasons to choose Wicket over JSF and Spring MVC
liked its form handling and navigation support but I did not like all
without me asking for it."
- [2006-12-26] not enamored by JSF 1.1
- I found this thread to be largely fact based. I think this is a great way to discuss APIs. Unfortunately, this discussion pertains to a version of the spec that is over five years old.
- [2007-01-01] JSF in 2007
we can see the influence of Seam on people's opinions. Note that most
of the good ideas in Seam went either into JSF2 or into CDI.
In the TSS comments I see, "Above all I think the Java community need to get away from premature standardisation of APIs, and let time and experience decide."
This has been my approach to developing JSF2 from the beginning, and I'm happy to see all the different ideas from many different sources in there.
- [2007-01-18] Tech Talk: Ed Burns on JSF 1.2
- "Make it trivial to design custom components. I am not saying make it easy. I am saying make it trivial."
Composite components to the rescue. Fixed in JSF2: ezcomp
"There is no "page load" event handler to do initialization."
System events make this even more fine grained in JSF2. Fixed in JSF2: systemEvents
As the author of this talk, I don't see how it supports your argument about JSF.
- [2007-02-19] JSF is cool but it is too young and it has too many bugs!
- We live in an age of super-heterogeneous development stacks. In this world it's very easy to run into situations where the various layers of the stack interact poorly. The author would have been well advised to check into one of the forums of the component libraries in the stack.
- [2007-02-28] JSF Anti-Patterns and Pitfalls
- Nice that you quoted Dennis Byrne's article. He was a leading light in the MyFaces development for JSF 1.2.
Also, any technology has its collection of best practices and gotchas. The fact that those for JSF are so well documented shows its vitality. Let's take a look at Dennis's subsections.
The Deja vu PhaseListener
Fixed in JSF2: systemEvents
Fixed in JSF2: annotations. No XML is required. Not even web.xml. Annotations are available for everything according to the 80/20 rule.
These issues are inherent in distributed multi-user systems design. The same issues will arise for shared objects in any web framework that uses the Servlet infrastructure.
Facelets Migration Challenge: Tags with Behavior
Putting behavior in your tags has always been discouraged. Dennis is simply adding to that chorus.
Law of Demeter
This one has nothing to do with JSF specifically and is simply a best practice about EL.
Code to Interface
This one has even less to do with JSF or EL or web frameworks. It's simply an axiomatic truth: make as few assumptions as possible by depending as little as possible on specific contracts. In Java, that means using interfaces correctly.
View state encryption
Note that turning on view state encryption in JSF is as simple as setting a content-param. How do you do that in Wicket?
- [2007-03-17] JSF - Still pretty much a steaming pile of donkey turd
author clearly does not like frameworks where the UI is built
declaritively with markup that stands in for anything. He prefers plain
HTML. For him, Wicket may be better. Also, he mentions the error
messages problem, which has been solved for years with facelets and now
solved in the JSF2 standard.
"I would have thought minimum requirements for a web layer toolkit would include:
- *not* being forward based, e.g. should support Post-Redirect-Get out of the box
- *not* baking in view artifacts, like referencing JSP pages. Use logical view names and allow a view resolver to work out what view technology is being used.
- Having a halfway decent notion of a conversation as well as rich *navigation*. "
All of these are fixed in JSF2: prg, navigation.
- [2007-04-16] JSF still sucks?
- I wonder why you didn't extract this quote from Matt Raible, "IMO, Facelets is very easy to learn. "
He also talks about "developer abandonment". Well, here we are now nearly three years later and there's more interest and development in JSF than ever. That's not very abandoned.
- [2007-04-26] Creating a jsf div component
- The article point out the steps that used to be required for building a custom UIComponent in JSF 1.2. None of these are required any more. A custom component can be just a single Facelet page.
- [2007-05-14] A Wicket user tries JSF
- "Wicket does not require any extra XML config like you have faces-config.xml for JSF"
In JSF2, you don't need faces-config.xml. IF you're on EE6, you don't need web.xml either. Fixed in JSF2: noWebXml
"Wicket does not require JSPs"
JSF2 doesn't require JSPs either. Also, the .xhtml extension is automatically mapped to JSF. Fixed in JSF2: noWebXml
"Navigation logic is performed in pure Java code which is much more..."
JSF2 navigation can be done centrally or per-page but it's always declarative. JSF2: navigation
- [2007-05-22] Rethinking JSF - The Real Problem
- The discussion on this thread was too mammoth to review in my limited time. However, scanning through it, I see an even balance of pro-JSF and anti-JSF positions.
- [2007-05-23] Six Things JSF Breaks (and How To Fix Them)
- I like this post. It is exactly correct and none of the recommendtions he makes are onerous, except for the desire for completely standards compliant XHTML. For simple pages this is possible, but when you use advanced components it is hard to guarantee.